Getting Real - Cliff Ponte

Cliff: 00:01

My name is Cliff Ponte. I am a Fall River politician, city council president. I am an entrepreneur, own a number of businesses in the city. And I wanted to start this podcast because I wanted to shine a light on Fall River, have discussions about where Fall River is at, the people that make it, the people who are part of it, the people who might be popular and, yeah, heck, maybe the people who aren't as popular. That is what I am trying to have this podcast encompass.

Cliff: 00:30

Real stories, real accountability, some fun along the way, and hopefully for you to see a little different side of me as not this big, stuck up, cocky, arrogant individual. Maybe a person who is real, who does the same things you do, but also is perceived as being a little rough around the edges or cocky and arrogant when I don't intend to be. I'm just focused on what I need to do. Search for getting real wherever you subscribe to your podcasts. Welcome, once again to another episode of getting real with Cliff.

Cliff: 01:08

This is a podcast that we continue to appreciate everybody who is listening. Continue to like, continue to share, continue to listen to the guests and the episodes, and feel free to provide feedback because we're we're loving would love to hear that. I am very excited today to bring a guest on that I've only known really for a short period of time being involved in city politics. But the individual, that is with us today is the interim chief or the provisional chief under civil service of the Fall River Police Department, and that is chief JT Hoare. JT, welcome.

JT: 01:45

Thanks for having me.

Cliff: 01:45

Thanks for being here. And I I've been really looking forward to having you. I know we've tried to get you here, and and I'm happy that you're here. I'm very interested to kinda go behind the scenes with you a little bit on what it's like to be the chief of police in Fall River. But before we get into that, tell your story a little bit if you can.

Cliff: 02:04

Fall River guy, you know, your dad was a police officer in Fall River. Who is JT Whore?

JT: 02:10

So born here, raised here, educated here, live here, no plans on leaving here, a product of Fall River. So I'm the fifth generation in my family to work for the Forever Police Department, but it's not what I've done my entire life. My dad never really wanted me to follow in his footsteps, asked me to try something different. So at a young age, I got involved with a technology startup company that was doing internet service providing and also web hosting for different companies. It was around the tech boom, late nineties, early two thousands.

JT: 02:44

I went to school for computer science or a related field, Internet communications technology over at New England Tech. Kinda got sick of doing that and was looking at different avenues. So I went to my dad and said, hey. I wanna become a cop. And he's like, try something else.

JT: 02:58

He's like, I'll make a promise to you, though. If you try to become a police officer, I'll break your legs before you make it to the police academy.

Cliff: 03:03

Your dad said that

JT: 03:04

to you? Yeah. So my legs are still working today, which is a good thing. So

Cliff: 03:08

Why did he say that, though? Why why why was that?

JT: 03:10

I think that he just had some reservations around it, and I think he wanted us wanted me to be better than him, and that was in his mindset that I could be something more. And he enjoyed that I was involved in technology and was, like, really proud of me in doing that. But there was always, like, a a calling inside of me that I was interested because I grew up around police work. I grew around grew up around my dad being in police department, obviously. All his friends were police officers, that family environment.

JT: 03:37

You know, a lot of my dad's friends were, like, second dads to me. And then through high school and in middle school, like, I never really could get in trouble because all eyes were on me. I mean, my last name is pretty distinct, so I couldn't really hide anywhere. But back to what I was saying is I went to a good friend of mine at the time who was working for LensCrafters, and he was like, hey. They're looking to hire people from outside.

JT: 03:59

I'm like, I have no idea what that's all about. He's like, no. There's a test you take, and they assess that if you could be able to be trained to be a manager. So LensCrafters at the time was, like, changing their model of bringing in people from the outside to manage. And I took the test.

JT: 04:12

I scored high. They trained me to be a general manager. I got my optician's license. I wasn't the doctor, but I can fit eyeglasses, fit contacts, and I learned how to run a multimillion dollar business. And I was running the Hyannis LensCrafters for several years, over $1,000,000 in profit, managing, all different things with profit and loss.

JT: 04:31

And I really got understood leadership. They did a lot of investment in leadership training, situational leadership, discipline, consistency, coaching, things like that. So still went back to my dad and said, hey. I wanna be a police officer still. He's like, listen.

JT: 04:44

I tried. If you're gonna do it, be the best cop you can be. He's like, but do yourself a favor. Take the test. Become a state trooper because they make a lot more money and do a lot less.

JT: 04:54

And go put put your best foot forward, but check both boxes. Check state police. Check local. That was 2009. Took the test, scored a 100.

JT: 05:03

But then in 2009, nine C cuts happened, and the Florida Police Department was decimated. Mass State Police was on a hiring freeze. So I was kinda waiting around until 2011 when I got a call from the state police. And then I got to the State Police Academy. Four days in, I tore my hamstring and had to resign.

JT: 05:22

So I had no job. I had resigned from my position as a general manager of LensCrafters. I had nothing. And my girlfriend at the time, who's now my wife, kinda let me marinate for a couple days and said, what are gonna do with yourself? Are you gonna feel sorry for yourself, or are you gonna do something?

Cliff: 05:36

Mhmm.

JT: 05:36

So I went back to LensCrafters working part time, helping to make ends meet. And then slowly but surely, they were calling people back to join the Florida Police Department because the funding had come from other sources, and they were trying to make themselves whole again. Obviously, people found jobs elsewhere, and there was a small pocket of people. They hired five people in 2012, and I was one of those five, and I never looked back after that.

Cliff: 05:59

What was it like your journey going from a patrolman to a police chief? I mean, I'm sure you had and for people who don't know, how do you know, and people that wanna become a police officer, maybe this is a great opportunity for that. There is opportunity for you to become a, you know, a police officer and rise up through the rankings.

JT: 06:17

Of course.

Cliff: 06:17

How did you do it? What was your course like?

JT: 06:20

So, obviously, my journey was a little bit different getting to become a police officer, but when I walked into the police department, I think I had to prove that I was JT Hoare, not Mike Hoare's son. And I kinda lived in that shadow and kinda went through that and, like, oh, you just got on this job because of your father. That's not true.

Cliff: 06:36

How long did you have to go through all that?

JT: 06:37

It took a while. Few months, and then, obviously, I think after a year or so, I proved it, but I knew I had to go in there and prove myself and and be a hardworking police officer. And, you know Who was

Cliff: 06:46

the chief at the time?

JT: 06:47

Chief Racine hired.

Cliff: 06:48

Racine hired you. Okay.

JT: 06:49

Yep. So then, obviously, chief Racine, he moved on, and then chief Duper was in there. I was a police officer for approximately three and a half years, four years, and then I went to detectives. But in 2016, right before I get transferred to detectives, we had an incident happen in Tiverton, Rhode Island. There was a shooting in a cemetery there where a guy was killed.

JT: 07:11

A BOLO went out looking for a vehicle. Another officer spotted the vehicle. I happened to be in the area. We ended up in a pursuit of the homicide suspect, and we ended up in a shootout with the guy in Tiverton. So I had bullets shot at me, and I had to shoot back.

JT: 07:27

And, you know, luckily, the good guys won in that one. Unfortunately, a life was lost in the suspect, but we came to a safe conclusion or as as safe as we could and assisted the Tiverton Police in putting an end to that situation. So went to detectives after that. That was probably the most fun I had in the police department was working

Cliff: 07:44

in Texas. That. What what is it like to be a detective in in any police department or yours?

JT: 07:49

I think it's cool because of the resources you have and the ability you can do to kinda solve cases, but also following up on work and doing a lot of the cool things. You're doing the search warrants. You're doing the investigative works, siphoning through video or different types of evidence, and then you get to see a lot of different things. I mean, I've saw some really cool things. I've seen some really horrific things, investigated some really interesting crimes where I was able to solve it, and it was beneficial for someone that, you know, had a lot of money stolen from them or had valuables stolen.

JT: 08:19

And then, obviously, I've I've investigated homicides. So it takes a toll on you, but I always took an approach to balance. You know, this this job can consume you if you let it, but I think it's important, and you see it now more so in twenty first century policing is there's a balance. There's about officer wellness, like what type of therapy is the officers getting, what type of critical incident debriefing they're getting. There's a big thing around mental health and police reform that happened back in 2020.

JT: 08:45

So I think that helps with the longevity because we all work to try to retire someday, so it's important to take care of yourself. But, yeah, detectives was really cool just being able to do a lot of those different things and kinda break the mold of Florida is a very busy city, so you kinda go call to call to call, and it becomes transactional to a certain degree. Detectives, you can kinda slow things down and take things more in, a tablespoon versus a ladle, if you will.

Cliff: 09:11

So you were a detective, and then you became what where'd you go from there?

JT: 09:14

So I promoted to sergeant when I was kind of at a crossroads there. Was like, do I wanna give up what I'm doing now as a detective? And I said, no. I wanna be a sergeant. I wanna try to supervise because I think what I was able to do having all the experience coming into the police department, I saw some things and opportunities in the agency.

JT: 09:30

Like, for instance, when I first came into the police department, you'd put an overtime slip in, and it was paper. You'd fill it out. It was a little small piece of paper, write your name on it. You'd sign and hand it in. I just remember being in, like, corporate environment, everything had an audit trail, and it was all computer driven.

JT: 09:46

To take a day off, you had to fill it out on paper. I was kinda surprised back in 2012 when I got on the job. Typewriters were still being avidly used in the police department. I So remember having dinner at my dad's house on Sunday and being like, hey. What the heck is going on Yeah.

JT: 09:59

Here? Like, he's like, oh, just the way it's always been. And that that line, know drives you crazy. It drives me crazy. Like, well, it doesn't always have to be that way.

JT: 10:07

Like, how can we either challenge the process or make it bigger so or better? So I said I could do that as a sergeant. So promoted to sergeant. I went to the school resource unit. I was working in the school resource unit, then went to professional standards for a little bit.

JT: 10:21

Left professional standards and went into training, planning, and accreditation. That's kind of my niche is, like, policy development and that I kind of fell that was kind of like no one ever wanted to be in that that area because it was a boring area. But I'm like, hey. Policy is what reflects change in an agency, and no better way way to implement changes through policy. So luckily in there, I I had the ear of a lot of the command staff and was able to navigate some stuff and and move it in a direction and got promoted during COVID to lieutenant.

JT: 10:50

I remained in that role. Chief Cardoza now was at that time. He invested a lot of trust in me, helping him with the policy side of things and the planning and then with the training. We were hiring like crazy. Even during COVID, we were still putting classes through.

JT: 11:04

And then from there, I think I spent about two and a half, three years in there, and then I went over, and I was in the staff services division. So I oversaw the civilian side of the police department, a lot of administrative stuff, 911, dispatchers, record keeping. But I always took pride in every little thing I did in the agency to try to make it better, implemented some systems, whether it be either procedurally or even computer aided stuff. So in the records division, the amount of records requests that the police department gets is crazy. We implemented a computer system that tracks that now so we can see what's coming in for requests, what's going out.

JT: 11:40

And then the dispatch is is the heartbeat of the police department. People call 911. You gotta make sure that we're getting the calls put in and people there. So it get me to see, like, the nuts and bolts of the police department and then made captain while I was still in that division. So I kinda took the role as the division commander without being a captain because I wanted to show what I could get.

JT: 11:59

That was under chief Govan. Become captain and then did that for about a year, and then the deputy chief opening happened when deputy Cullen retired. I took the assessment center, and I topped it and became deputy chief of administration. And then, obviously, chief Govan moved on to chief Fortato. I ended up becoming the deputy chief of operations.

JT: 12:21

There was a little bit of a organizational change there. And so, essentially, I think I've worked everywhere in the building Fab. Yeah. Except, I'd say, the drug unit. Yeah.

JT: 12:32

Yeah. So

Cliff: 12:33

what is the craziest thing you've seen? Like, and if you can I I don't know if you can get into the details, but you you've you've clearly risen through the ranks, and you've done so with admiration and respect? But I have to ask you, what what's the craziest thing you've seen whether it's a detective or a patrolman? Do you feel comfortable sharing it?

JT: 12:49

Probably the most impactful thing I had was the shooting that I was involved in. I don't think you ever go to a you go to work intending on being shot at or having to shoot back at somebody. So that was something in my career that kinda, you know, raised an eyebrow, but it kinda made it seem like it was the you were pushed to a moment where you were tested. Like, you could, you know, fight, flight, or freeze. I did what I was trained to do, and I was able to come home safely that night.

JT: 13:14

So functionally, that was one of the things that's memorable to me. Sorry. It's crazy. I had a missing person case that I was working on, and we had some leads that the person might be in Rhode Island. And then we ended up having an agency in Rhode Island recover a person that was buried in the backyard of a house in Cranston, and we had to piece together some video footage, but and it ended up being that missing person.

JT: 13:40

And we ended up being out there. It was actually, the time was captain Cardoza wasn't chief yet. We spent two days out there with the Cranston, Rhode Island Police digging a hole that was probably, I'd say, 20 feet deep to recover this body. And it was amazing. We recovered video footage across the street that kinda pieced it all together.

JT: 14:00

Mhmm. And this poor woman was killed and was wheeled to this vacant house in a recycling bin. And this individual that killed her who's been prosecuted and and and and is in jail now, he dug a hole by hand that deep to so that kinda there's some crazy things, but that's a lot of willpower and intention I felt to, like, get rid of that body, which was kinda crazy. And then the effort we had to put in as a police as police agencies to recover that person and then put a closure to that case. And it wasn't a happy ending, but at least we were able to Yeah.

JT: 14:33

Come to a conclusion. So that was that was probably one of the most impactful two impactful things in my career that I I haven't forgotten.

Cliff: 14:40

Yeah. So I wanna talk to you about life as a police chief. What does it look like? Like, what time are you waking up in the morning? What time are you in the department?

Cliff: 14:49

Are you getting there early, getting through emails, and getting the fire of the day? And and and I want wanna get into more most importantly too what you've changed and what what you're looking to change and what improvements you've made. I don't wanna lose sight on that. But Right. What is it like?

Cliff: 15:03

You wake up in the morning. What is your day like?

JT: 15:05

So I'd say it's not a full time job. It's an all time job. Mhmm. You have to be accessible to members of the community as well as, obviously, the elected officials, the mayor, and the agency. But my day looks like I usually wake up about 04:30 in the morning.

JT: 15:18

Wow. Check some emails, see where the day where the night has brought has brought us for crime or any significant incidents. I'm at the gym by five, 05:30, try to do an hour workout, and I'm committed to do that four or five times a week because that's about longevity and taking care of myself. But I'm, you know, I'm a go guy, so I'm on the treadmill, you know, either on the stairs or the treadmill checking my emails and answering some stuff. But I usually set four or five priorities that I wanna accomplish in the day.

JT: 15:45

I think you can relate. You're a busy guy. So if you don't have intention for that day and you're not able to at least check some of those boxes, well, how do you measure your success? So I usually you know, some easy goals, some long term goals, but at least have some organization there. I'm kind of a nut when I leave, like, voicemail messages to myself on my phone just to kinda follow-up on what stuff.

JT: 16:04

So sometimes somebody will say something, I'm in the car, I'll just say, hey. Make sure we follow-up on that request from Cliff. And then that way is a reminders because I think it's important when people are saying something to you as a chief that they feel that they were heard. I may not be able to make that happen right then and there, but following up later, and I've done that. Sometimes I didn't get back to them in a timely fashion, but maybe a week later, I'll follow-up and say, hey.

JT: 16:24

Yeah. We got to that. This is what we did. But, yeah, I'm into work no later than 07:30, and then the day kinda goes where it goes from there. I mean, obviously, the business of policing can be dynamic.

JT: 16:37

I mean, we saw over this last weekend, we had that hoax call that resulted in all that emergency response. So in a in a split second, things can change. But from an administrative standpoint, I've involved the team, and everyone knows what the what we're working towards. So I think it's important to communicate not only with the people in the building, but also outside, and that the message is clear of what we're looking to do. And being in the agency now, started my fifteenth year, I could see that communication wasn't always clear.

JT: 17:07

Everyone had different goals and objectives, and I think when I took over, I made it simple. We focused on three core values of people, positivity, and purpose. And I I remember addressing roll calls a few months ago and just saying, if you could come to work and just know those three things and and be intentful in those three areas, then that's right there a marginal day for me. I want a little bit more from everybody, but focusing on people positivity and the purpose, and then that's a marginal day. So I think that started to click because I think there's so many things the police get tasked with on a day in and day out basis that you lose sight of what the mission is sometimes, but the people come first all the time.

JT: 17:44

So it's a service based industry. I mean, I'm I'm treating the police agency now, like, as a business. So we're making decisions as a team. There's clear expectations. There's follow-up.

JT: 17:55

We're moving. It's not happening overnight, but organizational change is difficult.

Cliff: 17:59

What do you love most about the job?

JT: 18:02

The challenges you face, but more importantly, the impact you can have in the community. I think I was just talking to one of your people that work here before I came in to talk to you. I'm excited about where this city's going, and I'm I'm optimistic. And I think forever has this curse of like, oh, yeah. That's never gonna happen.

JT: 18:19

Railroad in forever? Like, you have people right now that still don't believe there's a railroad in forever even though can see a train passing

Cliff: 18:24

by. Yeah.

JT: 18:25

Yeah. And what do you mean they're gonna revitalize the waterfront? That's never gonna happen. Yeah. And their people still see these spaghetti ramps over there.

JT: 18:32

Yeah. But it's happening. Like, there's some really good stuff happening, and I think that's cool from the police perspective because we're at those events. Like, the seafood festival that kicked off back earlier this year, the beginning of summer, that was well attended. It was.

JT: 18:45

That was impactful. And that's when I I remember being at a meeting at the mayor's office and saying, like, hey, guys. Like, this is us. Like we're this is gonna be us. Like this is an attraction.

JT: 18:53

Like people that come into Fall River, so they need to feel the hospitality, they need to feel the safety, they need to feel the sense of community, and that's the excitement we can have as a police department because we have a vested interest and we can make things feel safer. We can make things feel better, and then that ultimately is the bigger picture. But believing in it, like, always said, like, why not us? Like, why can't we be the new poor? Why can't we be the Providence, Rhode Island?

JT: 19:16

We can. Mhmm. We just have to believe in ourselves. And I think there's a change happening slowly, but it's gonna happen. It's just a matter of time.

Cliff: 19:24

What do you not like so much as being police chief? What is what annoys you? What is it that you're like, What is your

JT: 19:34

Sometimes the frustrations that people have in the city, you can get caught up in chasing to try to fix that. And I like to fix things quickly for people, and sometimes it's just not that easy because there's a performance gap. We're hiring like crazy, as you know. So I've got a lot of police officers that have very little experience, but they're more than willing and able to do the job. So that performance gap is a huge thing because we have to invest time to train, time to let them flourish and become their own, and that takes time.

JT: 20:05

So that's the frustrating thing because I know where we can get to. It's just it's gonna take a little bit of time to

Cliff: 20:10

get in government, I'd say, municipal wise, takes way too long. And I know it's not at anybody's fault because if somebody could push somebody along, it happened a lot quicker. But my goodness, being in office as long as I have now, I can say things take too much time to get done. Why is it so hard to get police officers? Back in the day when I was a kid and I I think you're a little older than me, but when I was a kid, everybody wanted to be a police officer.

Cliff: 20:37

Everybody wanted to be a school teacher. Right? Those were the authority figures before you that you wanted to be like because they a police officer walks in a room, you get that respect instantly. What has changed? Why why why over the last several years has becoming a police officer not been a job that and I think it's admirable, me me speaking.

Cliff: 21:01

Mhmm. But why is it most people feel that becoming a police officer isn't as admirable as it once was? What changed?

JT: 21:08

Well, I think you saw that happen through police reform and some tragic incidents that have happened, not in Fall River particularly, but just nationwide that has changed the perception of the police. I mean, Fall River has not done a good job either in certain cases where the perception of our police department hasn't been the best. Mhmm. So why would you wanna get involved with something where it's under so much scrutiny and and people watching it all the time? And that's everywhere.

JT: 21:33

I mean, obviously, I'm part of many different associations with Chiefs of Police from local areas and then obviously nationally. It's the same everywhere. Like, there's scrutiny there. But I think the big thing is how we go and present it, and and and the culture you create in the agency is what's gonna recruit people. So that was one of my main focuses was to calm the place down, invest in the people, and I can control the environment by small changes.

JT: 21:59

You talk about government and things that take a long time. I looked at, alright, what do we do really good? What can we do better? And what can I change now that will be the most impactful to the people that are the ones pushing the police cars and answering the calls? And when you can make them feel heard, then they change and their morale is better.

JT: 22:17

And and having a vested interest that they can control where we go as an agency, and then they become the recruiting tool because then they they talk about a good place to work. And a credit to you, the person I was talking to when I came in, she was raving about how she loves to come to work. And I think that was policing. People love to be involved with policing because you could make the changes. It was a cool job.

JT: 22:37

You did the cool stuff, and there was a culture of it was a really fun job to do. That diminished over since 2020 when, you know, all these things happened. COVID happened, and there was a negative connotation towards the police. So it took us that long to kinda mess it up and fumble it. It's gonna take us that long to kinda rebrand.

JT: 22:54

But when I think when you have chief executive officers of police agencies nationwide looking at things a little differently and treating it like a business, we can control the business and, like, almost control your Yelp review. Right? So you check a place where you haven't been, if you see that they get a five star review and you read it, you're gonna wanna go there to eat. That's kinda where I've simplified it in our place is that we are customer service. People are calling us for service.

JT: 23:17

We may not be able to fix their problem, but at least we can find the answer for them and do it in a service oriented way. We're not perfect by any means. We're still working on it, but it's right now, the toughest job in the agency is the supervisors, the the first level supervisors, just making sure that they're training the individuals, feedback is being given, and and in small things are being changed just to to better the service. Because when I first got on, there was like that middle of the road guy that had like ten years on the job that'd be like, oh, I wouldn't do that FIWU, Cliff. I'd do this instead.

JT: 23:48

Yeah. Now in any given day, you could have a platoon of guys that all have similar amount of experience, they're kinda like, hey. What do you think? What do you think? So then they're calling the sergeant who has to come in and then make the overall decision.

JT: 24:00

It takes a few reps before they're like, oh, I remember when I had a situation like that. This is what you do. Right. So we kinda revamped our training program to do more like a university led thing when they come out of the academy and walk through some of the everyday scenarios so that they can be confident in doing the day in and day out work. Then the more complex stuff, they can learn right out on the road rather than just getting thrown to the wolves.

Cliff: 24:22

What changes have you made to the department high overview that people will understand? And what are you looking to change should you be appointed chief at one point?

JT: 24:31

So I think I'm seizing the moment that I have right now and and and seeing what I know we could change. And I think, obviously, there's been a lot of tumult that's happened Mhmm. With exits of Chiefs, intros of Chiefs, a lot of top level noise that the lower ranks don't wanna have

Cliff: 24:47

Very limited continuity. Yep.

JT: 24:49

Correct. So I think the first thing I did was communicate better with the rank and file, communicate better with people that have some oversight of the police department or have some input, and make them understand, like, yes. You can give us feedback. You're not gonna run the police department. That's my job.

JT: 25:02

But at least if you're heard and we're making some changes and some feedback there, communication is key and just taking care of the people and being available to talk. Like, I take pride in talking to the guys, and I think, you know, some people like, oh, well, he's only got fifteen years on the job. Well, I did other stuff outside of the police field, but I'm not that far removed from work. Like, could go work a cruiser tomorrow, and I remember what it's like to do that and understand the frustrations that are there. So it's like little things.

JT: 25:32

Like, I remember when I was in patrol, the the equipment, you know, I remember watching council meetings, praying that they were gonna bond to buy more cars because the city didn't have the money for the cars. And a credit now, we have a capital improvement plan, there's funding for the cruises, we're on a perpetual purchasing of cars because there's a vested interest in giving good equipment, but that contributes to the morale of the place. Because if you're given the right tools to do the job, then you can do it more effectively, and it makes a better place to work. The big thing I just focus on is communication, but accountability. So I've said that a million times.

JT: 26:05

Like, we have to be accountable for our actions, and we're gonna hold people accountable. But more importantly, like, you can't just pile it all on somebody. You have to say, alright. Where are your opportunity areas? What can we do to make you better?

JT: 26:17

And I've asked people for feedback to me, you know, what could I be doing better? And just letting people understand that they can have an influence on what's going on because I don't try to be the smartest guy in the room, and I'm holding, like, our command level guys to a level where they're trusted in making their decisions, and they're tasked with making some organizational change too.

Cliff: 26:36

Do you talk to previous chiefs?

JT: 26:39

Yes. Yeah.

Cliff: 26:39

And and and do you go to them for advice? Do they let you run the department? Do they call you? Do you call them? What's a conversation like with a prior chief?

JT: 26:47

I wouldn't say I call them for advice. I would say that there's, like, a conversation that, like, hey. How's things going? What do you think? And what about this?

JT: 26:53

And I think that I've learned so much from watching the past, and I'm not saying bad or good about any of previous Chiefs, but I think I'm confident in my ability. But I I'd rather have that conversation with the people in the building that are getting paid a lot of money to make those decisions. There's enough experience in the building that if we have a personnel matter or we have a crime issue, we have the think tank in the building. I don't need someone from the outside to tell me what we can change because the people that are gonna make the change for that issue are in the building. So I think that is something that's different now that guys are getting used to because they're like, oh, wow.

JT: 27:27

Alright. We're have a staff meeting. This is what we're gonna talk about, and this is what we're gonna do. We're working on improving that. There's been a lot of movement because of the new hires we've had.

JT: 27:36

We had a lot of promotions just happened. So we're reaching a point now where there's people in positions that have been promoted that is kind of gonna stay that way for a while. That was what it's like when I got on the job is that you were hoping that Cliff was retiring. You were hoping that Mhmm. JT was retiring to get a chance at being a sergeant.

JT: 27:54

In the last month, we promoted seven sergeants. Wow. Over the course of the last two years, we've almost replaced the entire cadre of sergeants with new ones, and there's 32 sergeants or 33 sergeants in the building. So that's a lot. So you talk about performance gaps, new new supervisors teaching new people.

JT: 28:13

Time is what I need right now, but I can't press fast forward. We just have to embrace the moment and make sure that we're training people and and staying focused on correcting any issues, but also supporting them as well.

Cliff: 28:24

How is the morale in the department now?

JT: 28:26

I think it's good. I think it's I think the communication piece, again, is why it's good, because they're not wondering what's going on. But I feel that it's good. I've gotten good feedback from people that have spoken to people in my department. But one thing I made very clear is that the message I send to the people, whether it be verbally or via email, is the same message I'm saying to the people out in the public.

JT: 28:49

So there's no miscommunication. I'm not painting a different picture outside, and then the people on the inside are like, that's not what's happening. They're like, what's happening is what happening. And and and and I'm just gonna keep resonating that. And when we move forward, we update that.

JT: 29:02

And I think, you know, you saw that from the council side when I took over. I gave you guys an action plan of like, this is what I can do in thirty days, in forty five days, ninety days, and I fed you along. And I think it made people feel that, alright. This is there's some checkboxes happening here. It's just Yeah.

Cliff: 29:17

We've never received that ever.

JT: 29:18

Well, I appreciate that.

Cliff: 29:19

We never received Yeah.

JT: 29:20

Was happening in the department. So there's there's wins there, because then people feel like there's a quantified success. Like, hey. We're moving in the right direction. We're not just getting pushed backwards in the current.

Cliff: 29:30

So let's talk about Chiefs. Right? Because this is, I guess, the black cloud that's been hanging over the department over the last couple of years, and and and I would say it went back to when Jayson was mayor. We had a police chief. That chief was chief.

Cliff: 29:45

He's no longer chief. He kept back. He he dropped down to back to a deputy, and then there was noise. And then there was another chief that came in, and there was more noise. Right.

Cliff: 29:55

More recently, to bring it into perspective, there was a appointment by the mayor. I wasn't on the council then. Govan was police chief, and I'll make no qualms about my position about how he was exited out of that building. I felt that it was wrong. Civil service apparently has agreed with some of the things that I was saying and other counselors were saying at that time because I'm I'm a character integrity guy, separate and apart from what some people might wanna say about me, say and you've learned this as well.

Cliff: 30:25

I I I come from an area of of giving back and trying to do the right thing everywhere I can and and not hurting people as you try to move your way up to the top. And and I'm not asking you to comment on this at this point, but I, you know, I took a position when, the the most recent chief before you was appointed chief because I just didn't feel, in my opinion, the way that was handled was appropriate. I felt they were hurting people on their way to the top, and that wasn't the right thing to do. Going moving past all that, we saw that Govan was even though there's an appeal period and whatnot, was a pending Post's decision, might be getting his job back. And I remember vividly at the city council meeting when we were appointing him, I think you were probably there.

Cliff: 31:09

They were trying to say this comment about a bullet in a desk, and I'm like, I don't understand. I remember pulling my drawer out at the council meeting trying to say, help me understand that if somebody put a bullet in a desk, how they will move. I didn't mean to be so demonstrative, but it just happens because when passion takes over, you just it is what it is. So going back to where we're at, there was a cloud over the department, over how that was handled, Gauffin out, Kelly Fortato in, Kelly in, and whether she was set up for failure or not, that's not up to me to decide. Kelly's chief, it was tumultuous from the minute she get it got in to the minute she retired.

Cliff: 31:47

And there was lots of controversy. Candidly, knock on wood, you become chief, communications improved, controversy has stopped. We're not talking about how police are going after police, and I'm not getting calls about one cop talking about another cop. Things are quiet. Things have calmed down.

Cliff: 32:10

Credit needs to go to you for that. But what was it like in the department in whatever rank you were in to go from chief to chief to chief, controversy over controversy, people covering stuff up, people talking bad about people, all these other things? What was it like in the department? And obviously, what is it like now?

JT: 32:30

Well, I mean, uncertainty is gonna breed a lot of contempt. It's gonna breed a lot of voids that people are gonna fill in with whatever narratives. And, you know, people saw that there were people speaking with people outside of the agency. There was, you know, almost like a mutiny environment, and I've said that in multiple circles. Like, I saw it as that.

JT: 32:48

And it's like, you can aspire to be the president of The United States. It doesn't mean that you'll ever be the president of The United States, and not everyone is equipped to be the president of The United States. With that said, from my own personal standpoint, I can't tell you that I aspired to be the chief of police. The only thing I aspired to do was become a sergeant, so at least I could say I got as far as my dad. And a little bit internally, I wanted to get to lieutenant so I could say at least I went one higher than him.

JT: 33:13

Yeah. And that's kind of the joke at the Sunday dinner table now. It's like, nickname was Serge, and I'm like, well, I guess you can call me chief now. Yeah. Yeah.

JT: 33:20

Yeah. Yeah. That's great. The the the thing is is that a lot of people have asked me, like, why would you wanna be the chief there? Like, this is from my own friends that are not in the profession.

JT: 33:29

And I'm like, well, it's not about wanting to be the chief. It's about being able to be a leader. Right? So I'm very confident that I can lead the agency and then bring it to a place that has never been. But if it's in another field, I think I can do that.

JT: 33:41

I think you see that just in the private sector. You bring in people that are impactful of change in leadership. It's not always about your expertise in the field. But the agency wasn't in a good place when you have the leaders constantly changing because then people are like, alright. Which way are we going here?

JT: 33:55

Are we going left? Are going right? Who's in? Who's out? I will tell you right now, one of the things I pride myself on is fair and equitable in professionalism.

JT: 34:04

I treat everyone fairly with respect, and I am not gonna say to you that, hey, Cliff, I think you're the best, and then I'm gonna go have a conversation with someone else and say, yeah, that guy thinks he's the best. That undermines the agency, and people talk, and that's not fair to the person. What I will be is you need to surround yourself with people that are gonna tell you what you need to hear, not what you wanna hear. And that's something that's been said in multiple facets of any leadership training or other successful leaders have said, but it's okay to say that. It's to practice it.

JT: 34:33

And I'm not afraid of having tough conversations around performance and holding people accountable. But the point being is is that I wanna be successful. No one comes to work and says, boy, man, I wanna do a really bad job today. Like, that's what I'm out setting out for. Right.

JT: 34:47

They come to work to do a good job, but if they're not told the the the the the smallest thing of what they need to accomplish today, then it's kind of a a meaningless mission. Right? They're just gonna run around and everything becomes transactional. And it can be like that in patrol division, like, where you come to work and you're answering calls. I'm trying to show, like, the vested interest that you can have as a patrol officer.

JT: 35:09

It's not an undesirable position to be a patrol officer. It's one of the most impactful positions to be in. And when you can understand that from new people getting on the job and that the supervisors can understand all of that chemistry, then things start to move in the right direction. But I think it's listening again to the people, and I think that changes the arousal. Things are calmer now because I think my message is clear.

JT: 35:34

People are not afraid to speak with me, and they understand that I'm a pretty straight shooter, and I'm the same person in the building as I am outside the building. I feel like I'm pretty well respected in the community. I know a lot of people, whether it be acquaintances or people that I have the pleasure of of being in social circles with, but I don't owe anybody anything. I didn't get here because I asked for any favors or anything like that.

Cliff: 35:56

Do right thing.

JT: 35:57

Do the right thing. And I can tell you right now that confidently for every police chief that I've been under, I've worked harder for the next one because it wasn't for them. And I've had some chiefs that liked me, some Chiefs that may have not liked me or whatever it may have been. At the end of the day is that I did my job, and I did it well. So I've said it before.

JT: 36:20

If you wanted to put me in a closet counting paper clips, just know they were gonna be the best paper clips counted, and I'm gonna have a spreadsheet that keeps an inventory of that. And when you can do that, and it doesn't matter what job you give me, I think that's what I'm looking for is some vested interest that give me your 100% effort, and then I'll be able to back you up. And not every position in the police department's desirable. There's different things that we do. Like, it can get mundane in certain aspects.

JT: 36:47

But at the end of the day, I took an oath to be a police officer. And if tomorrow I had to go answer calls in a police car, mean, I I was I'm out there still kinda doing that here and there when I can because I miss it. Not that that's what I wanna do because I'm the chief of police, but when you can show by example that you're there and supporting it I I did it a few weeks ago. We had one of our officers out there helping somebody cross the street with their groceries. Saw them.

JT: 37:09

And then I made a point to go out there and and meet him on the street and shake his hand. And next thing you know, we're we're in some other incident that's happening where a woman pulls over asking for help and, like, jump into action like that. But I think being forward facing and being accessible as a chief is important, and I think it it reflects on the people that are in the place because they see that, hey. This this person really cares about what's going on. And I truly do.

JT: 37:31

And that goes back to my my roots. I'm not going anywhere. I'm I'm gonna die in Fall River. I don't have any plans to leave. I'm I wanna see this city succeed, and I've got plenty of time left in my life.

JT: 37:42

I hope to see that.

Cliff: 37:43

Where are we at from a city side? I know the mayor indicated to me recently that he is gonna put the assessment center, get the assessment center open or whatever they call that for civil service because the council asked for a process last time Correct. In not upbringing somebody up from lower ranking and move them to chief. It was let's do things the right way and make sure you're fully vetted. Mhmm.

Cliff: 38:05

Do you believe in civil services, chief?

JT: 38:08

I do. Do you

Cliff: 38:08

think it should and why?

JT: 38:10

I think it gives you the protections necessary, and I think to bring up captain Galvin's civil service decision, that decision is something the agency and the city has to abide by. They felt that, alright. Yes. There were some issues there. This is what we felt was better, And there's an arbitrary decision that you had a commissioner review that case.

JT: 38:29

And that's something to any civil service agency. And there's been other cases that have been appealed to civil service by other agencies and even ours where decisions come from a third party. What I believe is that civil service gives you the protections, but all an understanding that it gives us a a system that allows for less interference. And you don't have all these changes that happen because there's a little bit of protection. And I know there's there's a flip side to that coin, and you're like, oh, well, it almost gives you, like, a super protective shield.

JT: 39:00

Well, in honesty, it doesn't because if you still do something that is wrong to a certain degree, then, yes, it would warrant the just cause for termination. But I think it will bring stability to this agency. I think that's one of the things the council and the mayor were looking for was stability. So I think contract chiefs are common in the state. There's some civil service, not as many contracts.

JT: 39:23

But with contract positions, doesn't matter whether you're the chief of police or you're contracted to be whatever position for the city. There's some uncertainties there sometimes, and you can move in a different direction. I think when it comes to public safety I mean, the fire chief civil service. Yep. So you know that Right.

JT: 39:39

He's there. He's your guy. He's gonna work together. And that's kinda my mindset is I'm gonna if I get the position, and and hopefully that's the case, I'm gonna work with you guys. I've been giving you a a dress rehearsal for the last few months, and I'm not gonna change the minute I get civil service status.

JT: 39:55

I mean, I've had civil service status all the way up until deputy chief. Deputy chief is civil service. But deputy chief civil service assessment center, you know, I came in number one. So by the by the standards of civil service, that's the most qualified guy for the position. They're not saying you have to select them.

JT: 40:11

You could bypass that person, but you have to tell civil service and that candidate why you're not picking them, why that other person is better. And if you can't thoroughly explain that, then it's not a warranted bypass, and there's appeal process with that. It even happens with people that are taking the test with civil service to become police officer when we are vetting these people, to your point, vetting these new police officers, we can't just say, you know what? I don't like the way Cliff dressed that day when he came for his interview, so we're gonna bypass them. There's gotta be a little bit more there substance wise, and there's gotta be some type of path.

JT: 40:45

Alright. Maybe Cliff can't be hired now, but what type of feedback did you give him so that he could improve on that? And if he takes that, he could come back. And that's something I saw in private business when I was hiring people. They come in.

JT: 40:57

They didn't interview well. I'm like, hey. Here's some feedback for you. We're not selecting you, but x y and z if you improve it. And some people do come back.

JT: 41:04

And they they come back and they're like, oh, wow. You've you've put that down. That's kinda what I was saying earlier in this podcast is about even when you're on the job, it's about feedback and and professional development and and and giving the ability to tell people when they've done a good job and when they're not, the same thing. But, yeah, civil service, I think, is a good thing. I know there's mixed emotions on that, but there's a process there, and there's protections in there.

Cliff: 41:28

And I think that's what everybody wanted at that time. We wanted a process, not just an appointment. And granted it was going like that for a while. I mean, you know, there was not the first captain or, I guess, maybe well, was there a lieutenant became chief? I don't really know.

Cliff: 41:40

But separate and apart from that, I mean, the process will dictate what goes on and goes forward. Wrapping this up, I have to ask, just to get back to work, is this. What is one thing people don't know about you? Maybe people have this whole thing where the police are the police, the police are bad, the police department's corrupt, anti police, and whatever it is. We need police in a community.

Cliff: 42:03

They're vital to making sure a community is safe As long as the department is being run with a high function of ethics and integrity, I don't think we have anything to worry about, and I think we've done a good job of that over the last couple of months. But what's the one thing about JT Hoare, the police chief or the person that the general public might not know about that maybe they should?

JT: 42:22

I'm a pretty funny person.

Cliff: 42:24

You are? Yeah. You haven't ever made me laugh.

JT: 42:26

I bet. No.

Cliff: 42:27

I have to. You have.

JT: 42:28

But I I'm the serious guy, and I wanna make sure that we we hold people accountable, but there's a place to make it funny in in certain aspects. I mean, timing of that is there, but I I tell you, I pride myself on some one liners here and there just to poke some fun and be human. I'm human, and that's it. So when there's a human element, I met with the Flint Neighborhood Association last week, and I got some feedback from Bernadette. She was the she's the president.

JT: 42:52

She's like, man, when I looked at you, you kinda seemed like you were unapproachable and a little stoic. And I'm like, yeah. I get it. I understand. She's like, you have, like, that resting cop face.

JT: 43:00

She's like, but when I got to know you, man, like, there's different layers to you. And that's something, like, I'm working on. Like, obviously, you gotta be a little bit more open, but, yeah, unfortunately, you know, I'm half Asian, so I get that Asian. You know? You know, Asians don't raisin.

JT: 43:12

They just got the flat face, but I'm a funny guy. I care about this community more than most people think. And like you were saying earlier, what's the job of police chief? It's listening to the community, and it's nonstop. So, like, I get home from work.

JT: 43:27

My phone's still going. People are texting me, or I'm getting phone calls, or I'm listening to conversations of people are having, and I'll interject, and the the topics have come up, you know, the hot topics about flock cameras or this and with that, and I'll have no problem answering it. I know my wife kinda gets frustrated sometimes because, hey. We're trying to have dinner, but I'm like, I'm seizing the moment because if I can inform six more people about what we're doing on this, then they can be the spokespeople for me. And then eventually, people like, hey.

JT: 43:54

No. We took the time to say this. It's when you're unapproachable and unreachable, both inside and outside the building, that I think people start to alienate you, and they're like, oh, what what's this guy's story? So Yeah. I'm human.

JT: 44:04

I try to balance my life Mhmm. Because I wanna I wanna have longevity. So that's kinda where I'm at.

Cliff: 44:09

Well, that's great. And I I'll tell you, and and and I'll be direct with you like I always can be. You know, there's if I'm fortunate enough to be on the city council, it's a time that you have to become appointed by the mayor and approved by the city council. That process will still remain the same. I've told you from from afar, and I'll tell you now, I'm I'm watching how you conduct yourself.

Cliff: 44:30

I'm watching, I'm not automatically always gonna be a yes vote for you. I'm I'm paying attention to the way you're acting in your dress rehearsal because quite frankly, the fall of a police department doesn't have time for a dress rehearsal. But we have one now. I'm paying attention to the way you communicate. I'm paying attention to the way you address matters, talk to personnel, how your how the department and you know what?

Cliff: 44:53

Being a police chief, you're not supposed to be the most liked guy in the room.

JT: 44:57

Right.

Cliff: 44:57

But you're supposed to be respected. Correct. You're supposed to have that respect. You know what? The chief's mad at me today, but at the end of the day, I I deserve that.

Cliff: 45:04

I I I needed to be talked to that way. Right. That's what the department needs, that steady hand of an individual who isn't fearful of when you walk into a room Correct. But is instantly respected for the person and the demeanor that you're about. So I'm monitoring that just as an elected official to see how you continue to show up, how you respond.

Cliff: 45:23

You're in a job interview every single day, I guess, essentially, and I don't think that will change if you're fortunate enough to become chief. I think you're always gonna show up knowing that there is possibility that you might not be here tomorrow, and that's like that with anybody. So I'm I'm impressed so far with the way you've conducted yourself. There's certainly some other milestones in my eyes that I think you would need to get, and I think you know that. Sure.

Cliff: 45:44

And communication style has been fantastic in the way you've tried to improve things and and the morale that you've put in and the respect that you have. It isn't unnoticed for me and the people that I surround myself with, and and I really hope that that's something that you continue to do and and continue to do best for the agency, which is something every time I've talked to you, you've always said, if this is what's best for the agency, I'm all about having that conversation. I think that's a great step forward.

JT: 46:10

Well, thanks for that feedback, and I appreciate the the feedback you've given because not everyone's gonna be happy. Mhmm. But listening to maybe some of the gripes and how I could address that, as I said earlier, the small changes you can make that impact somebody at a bigger level at a at a lower area speaks volumes and for the morale in the police. So I'm trying to stay in tune with that the best I can.

Cliff: 46:31

Stay safe. Thank you for coming today, and looking forward to having you on maybe again another time.

JT: 46:35

Appreciate it. Thanks. Thanks.